Ministry of Truth » All change in West Bromwich West?

All change in West Bromwich West?

I’m not a great one for gossip and rumour, at least not as it relates to my own side of the political divide, but if what I’ve been told over the weekend is correct then life is possibly going to become very interesting indeed for one local MP.

Adrian Bailey is the MP for the constituency of West Bromwich West, and if you’re not from these parts then that may be about as much as you’ve ever been told about him.

Baliey has been an MP since November 2000, when he won the seat in by-election caused by the retirement (to the House of Lords) of his far more illustrious predecessor, Betty (now Lady) Boothroyd, who was, of course, the first woman Speaker of the House of Commons, and for all that he’s known to be an ultra-loyal Blairite, that hasn’t particularly helped him climb the greasy pole - to date he’s reached the dizzy heights of Parliamentary Private Secretary at the Department of Work and Pensions, i.e. an unpaid bag-carrier for, first, David Blunkett and, latterly, John Hutton.

Avid political watchers might also recall that he got into something of a spat with Tom Watson, following Tom’s resignation as a junior Defence Minister, having signed a letter calling on Tony Blair to set a firm timetable for his departure as Prime Minister:

Mr Bailey, who is in the neighbouring West Bromwich West constituency, immediately jumped to the Prime Minister’s defence and accused Mr Watson and his fellow rebels of being “destructive to the party”.

He said: “I believe a leader who has won three general elections should be trusted to time that exit.”

And he said Mr Watson and the others, who he said were “the younger MPs” were acting in a way that could be disruptive and not in the best interests of the party.

Bailey’s outburst in the local press hardly went down well with local members; two senior local councillors even described him as being ‘out of touch with voters’ - none more so than members of his own CLP if even half of what I’ve been told over the weekend is true.

To say that there’s dissent in his CLP ranks would seem to be rather an understatement. Outright revolt may be rather closer to the mark and this may well lead to moves to unseat Bailey as the CLP’s chosen candidate for next general election.

From what I’ve been told, the relationship between Bailey and a significant portion of his CLP has been deteriorating for some time, although matters really started to come to a head before last year’s local elections, at a time when the local party was expecting to come under serious pressure from the BNP - Labour lost three seats to the BNP at that election, all in Bailey’s constituency.

Two events, which took place in the run in to those elections, appear to have brought tensions to head within the CLP.

First, Bailey is alleged to have been deeply involved in efforts to unseat a well-respected and long-serving local councillor in order to insert one of his favoured supporters into the seat, a move that backfired spectacularly when the councillor in question stood down rather than fight what was expected to be a fairly bitter and acrimonious selection contest, leaving Bailey’s preferred candidate to fight the election and lose the seat to the BNP - this despite boundary changes having moved a sizable Asian community into the ward in question.

To compound matters, Bailey is also held by CLP members to have been behind a decision to delay the CLP’s annual general meeting from March (before the election) to the following July. This decision was taken out of the hands of local members and forced on the CLP by Regional Office on the pretext that fighting the election was more of a priority and the CLP did not need the ‘distraction’ of an AGM, although the view of many in the CLP is that this delay was engineered solely to avoid Bailey having to face a mutiny amongst the CLP membership.

As a direct consequence of the AGM being delayed, the sitting officers of the CLP chose, en bloc, not to stand for re-election when the AGM was eventually convened in July, leaving it in the embarrasing position of finding itself unable to fill the post of CLP Treasurer at its own AGM, forcing it to wait a further two months until an appointment could be made.

Eight months on and word is, again, reaching me of serious dissention within CLP ranks, this time over an attempt to railroad through Bailey’s reselection as the constituency’s candidate for the next general election.

The issue, as I understand it, is one of timing. Last year, the local elections were put forward as a pretext for delaying the CLP’s AGM for several months. This year, with the CLP under much the same pressure from the BNP in the upcoming local elections - early predictions suggest that Labour could lose another 3-5 seats to the BNP, most of which, again, will be in West Bromwich West - not only is the CLP’s AGM going ahead on its usual schedule but it seems an attempt has been made timetable the selection process for the next general election before the local elections, as well - a move that many in the CLP are interpreting as an effort, on Bailey’s part, to get his nomination reconfirmed before Blair heads off into the sunset. Bailey, it seems, is less than confident of the getting the full backing of the party machine without Blair standing over it and has been trying to push things through accordingly.

Whether the current rumblings of discontent amount to sufficient will to unseat Bailey is difficult to assess as yet, although he appears not to helped his cause one bit by the manner in which his supporters have attempted to fast-track his reselection.

Apparently, a timetable for the reselection, that would have seen it done and dusted before the May elections, was ‘agreed’ by a meeting of the CLPs officers at which two of those present were paid employees of Bailey’s constitutency office. Although this timetable has now been rejected by the CLP executive, in a meeting that has been described to me as ‘heated’, a number of members are now asking questions about whether these two individuals should have withdrawn from the officer’s meeting due to what seems a pretty obvious conflict of interest, as well as raising more general questions about whether its appropriate to CLP members who are employed by the MP to take an active role in debates/votes where their employment gives rise to such a clear and obvious conflict of interest.

Far from smoothing the way to a secure candidacy at the next general election, this latest round of procedural shenannigans appears to have made many CLP members all the more determined to open up the constitutency to other prospective parliamentary candidates and at least take a look at the alternative candidates who may be on offer. A poor result in the local elections and further losses to the BNP could harden the resolve of Bailey’s opponents even further, not least as another of Bailey’s employees is current having half his salary paid by the local Labour group in order than he can coordinate local campaign activities against the BNP. However, to date, there seems to be a considerable amount of dissatisfaction amongst local activists as to the conduct of this ‘campaign’, which many consider to be notable only for its lack of impact thus far.

Whatever happens, it seems likely that the upcoming selection process in West Bromwich West will be be one to watch. It’s too early to say, for certain, whether the knives are actually out for Adrian Bailey, but talk to a few of his CLP members and one gets the distinct impression that they’re being sharpened at the moment.

[A few corrections made for typo’s and accuracy - especially as there appears to be a journo watching]

Posted by Unity on 26 Feb 2007 at 13:21 pm

Politics & Local

137 Seditious Acts in reply to “All change in West Bromwich West?”

on 26 Feb 2007 at 2:03 pm 1.Bob Piper said …

A little local difficulty…

I’ve just had a phone call from a journalist asking me if I have any comment to make on this piece at the Ministry of Truth. All I can say is…. nothing to do with me guv. As I see……
on 26 Feb 2007 at 3:55 pm 2.Political Penguin said …

Just a query. The sizeable asian community moving into the ward. From memory I don’t think there was much movement that affected the Tividale Ward.
You’re not mistaking it for the movement of the Temple Way estate into the Oldbury ward from Tipton Green are you?
on 26 Feb 2007 at 4:35 pm 3.Unity said …

Nope - although it would have been nice if the ward in question had picked up Temple Way.

The pick-up is at the other end of the ward and its not necessarily apparent on the census data, but there are a couple of new housing developments on the fringes that have had a growing Asian population over the last 4-5 years.

It’s not as sizeable a shift as Temple Way, but its probably as much as 100-150 voters, which is big enough on local turnouts.

The big problem with last year’s election is that BNP vote didn’t shift at all (I think they went up by about 10-15 votes), despite having both the Tories and Lib Dems running candidates - something they didn’t bother with in 2004 - while we dropped about 250-270 votes. That’s well with the scope of the kind of personal vote that a well-established councillor can bring home, and its that that many think cost us the seat.
on 28 Feb 2007 at 11:52 pm 4.Tom Buckley said …

I dont think that even a “well established councillor” of the sort you mention could have won at that time in the Ward concerned.

Do you not think that looking back to that time that the resignation of the Home Secretary and the circumstances relating to it had more to do with it or would you rather think that the local electorate were enraged at not having a “well established councillor” that they refused to turn out?
If that were the case then we would have no new councillors or MP’s standing in any Ward.

I think that the “many” if you are to be believed are missing the point here.
The BNP won the Ward concerned because of what was happening nationally as opposed to not having a so called “well established councillor” to vote for.

Besides, most people in the electorate cannot even remember their councillors name let alone worry about whether they are established or not.
on 05 Mar 2007 at 11:06 pm 5.churn said …

Adrian Bailey is an excellent MP for West Bromwich west. An honorable an respectable MP. There are some in the local CLP who think they bully the democratic process that exists in the labour party.

If you look at his voting record alone in the house of commons you will see he is one of the most responsible of MP’s across the country.
on 16 Mar 2007 at 4:02 pm 6.Tividale Terrier said …

Are the some who bully inclusive of the following voting members of the clp:

Adrian Bailey MP
Jill Bailey (Wife)
A bailey (SON)
M Crompton (paid employee)
Crompton (Husband of paid employee)
L Ashman (paid employee)
ANO (partner paid employee)
S Benton (paid employee)

over 20% of the membership .
on 18 Mar 2007 at 12:40 am 7.working class said …

Hello folks,
So much for our working class heros,god stalins turning in his
grave.
thanks for the info
on 18 Mar 2007 at 12:41 am 8.working class said …

Hello folks,
roll on may!
on 18 Mar 2007 at 12:52 am 9.working class said …

Labour councillors with their BMWS.(SANDWELL)
So much for being working class
on 24 Mar 2007 at 8:46 pm 10.working class said …

NEW LABOUR RIP (SANDWELL)
on 30 Mar 2007 at 8:42 am 11.working class said …

What about Cllr D.Rowley jumping ship next year?
changing wards(from Great Bridge)
He must know something! god save A.Bailey!
on 30 Mar 2007 at 8:53 am 12.Unity said …

What about the BNP Councillor who voted illegally on the Council’s Budget?
on 03 Apr 2007 at 7:00 pm 13.working class said …

Thats life!
What about the Sandwell Councillor,who likes little boys?
What a sick bunch!
on 03 Apr 2007 at 7:14 pm 14.working class said …

Whos the next NEW LABOUR COUNCILLOR out on their backside?
Howes?
allen?
turton?
Hinton?
Whos going????????????????????Please!
on 03 Apr 2007 at 7:17 pm 15.working class said …

Make your list?(just some fun!)
on 09 Apr 2007 at 10:02 am 16.working class said …

COME ON FOLKS!WHOS NEXT!
on 10 Apr 2007 at 10:57 am 17.David Bartley said …

Councillor Thomas won’t be changing wards ; I’m told he likes it up Rowley !!!!
on 10 Apr 2007 at 2:15 pm 18.working class said …

NOT AS MUCH AS POLAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
on 10 Apr 2007 at 2:16 pm 19.working class said …

BUT NOT MORE THEN POLAND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
on 10 Apr 2007 at 2:36 pm 20.working class said …

WHOS GOING FIRST?-CLLR HOWES OR CLLR TURTON?
ME THINK? TURTON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOWES,THEN CLLR HINTON.
GOD WHAT A NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THEN CLLR ALLEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!
POOR OLD BAILEY,POOR THING!
on 10 Apr 2007 at 3:54 pm 21.David Bartley said …

‘Working Class’ is on the right lines, however, anyone who hasn’t got the courage to put their real name after their comments doesn’t deserve respect.
Come on ‘Working Class’, prove that you are a man and not a mouse ! Take a leaf out of my book and use your real name !
DAVID BARTLEY OF TIPTON. I REPEAT, DAVID BARTLEY OF TIPTON !
on 11 Apr 2007 at 12:04 am 22.David Bartley said …

For far too long, the labour party in Sandwell have thrived due to the apathy and misguided loyalty of the people.
People are now realising that the elected labourites couldn’t give a toss about the electorate. All they are concerned about is “WHAT’S IN IT FOR ME !” They are in it for the money! This explains why so many ‘husband & wife’ double acts are amongst Sandwell’s 72 councillors. One gets their nose in the trough, realises what’s on offer, then gets their partner to immerse their snout !
Their time is running out. We have had enough !!!!!!!!
on 11 Apr 2007 at 7:04 am 23.working class said …

TIPTON CALLING!MR BARTLEY!
ITS JUST FUN!BUT NOT FOR OUR NEW LABOUR COUNCILLORS!
on 11 Apr 2007 at 7:07 am 24.working class said …

BIG BOATS/CARS? THATS SANDWELL LABOUR! WORKING CLASS MY ARSE
LABOUR WITH A BIG C! (FOR CON)
on 12 Apr 2007 at 8:26 am 25.working class said …

HAS CLLR KHATUN JOINED THE LIST OF NEW LABOUR COUNCILLORS,
WHO ARE FACING THE BOOT NEXT MONTH?{TIPTON GREEN)
on 12 Apr 2007 at 11:26 pm 26.David Bartley said …

I admire the optimism of ‘Working Class’, but I’m not so confident. Yes, these artificial socialists should be booted out of the Sandwell Council House, but will it happen ?
Invariably, they thrive on the apathy and misguided loyalty of Sandwell’s residents. This fact, combined with the postal vote, also the shuffled boundaries of the wards, will almost certainly ensure that some of these individuals will be undeservingly elected. Even so, I hope ‘Working Class’ is right. LET’S GET LABOUR OUT OF SANDWELL !!!!
on 14 Apr 2007 at 8:19 am 27.working class said …

THE BOAT MAN, (A NEW (CON)LABOUR COUNCILLOR )HAS BEEN SEEN WALKING AROUND HIS WARD!(TIVIDALE)
ITS THAT TIME OF THE YEAR!ONCE EVERY FOUR YEARS!
THE GOOD COUNCILLOR IS ALWAYS AT MEETINGSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
WE ALSO HAVE OUR NEW LABOUR COUNCILLOR,WHO LIKES A GOOD RIDE!
(I MEAN HORSE RIDING!-) )
WE KNOW THE FENCING WAS FOR YOUR HORSE!!!COUNCIL TAX PAID)!!!!!!!!
on 14 Apr 2007 at 9:41 am 28.David Bartley said …

There are a few apples in the ‘Sandwell Labour Barrel’ which have not turned sour, but they are few and far between.
Cllr Howes, Cllr Evans & Cllr Webb, I send you my best wishes.
on 14 Apr 2007 at 3:07 pm 29.working class said …

BUT standing for a party of bad apples(sandwell labour)
you become one yourself!
but point taken(cllr Evans is OK)
on 14 Apr 2007 at 3:10 pm 30.working class said …

BUT standing for a party of bad apples(sandwell labour)
you become one yourself!
but point taken(cllr Evans is OK)
WHOS GOING THIS MAY??????????????????????????????????????
on 15 Apr 2007 at 6:58 pm 31.David Bartley said …

The number of labour councillors in Sandwell has steadily fallen over the past 5 years. This trend is not surprising and should continue next month. I will see you labourites at the count. Until then ; TIGHTLY CLENCH YOUR BUTTOCKS !!!!
on 17 Apr 2007 at 9:08 am 32.working class said …

THEY ARE A TREACHEROUS BUNCH!WOULD YOU LEAVE YOUR CHILDREN WITH
SOME OF THEM,ME THINK NOT!
CLLR BAD-UN HAS BEEN WIH A FELLOW COUNCILLOR, WALKING THE SREETS
OF HIS WARD(MUST BE CHRISTMAS! )
POSTING ILLEGAL ELECTION MATERIAL-YOU BAD-UN!
TIVIDALE NEWS
THE HARD WORKING LABOUR COUNCILLOR, (ITS A JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
THE PEOPLE ON YOUR LEAFLET?
THIS YEAR ARE YOUR FELLOW COUNCILLORS FAMILY (POOR CLLR)-))
PEOPLE KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!YOU MUST CALL PEOPLE
BACK,NOT JUST AT ELECTION TIMESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
HILL TOP
CLLR TURTON, HILL TOP NEEDS TOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THE WAll ON HOLLWAY BANK, HILL TOP.
THE WALL HAS BEEN DAMAGED FOR MONTHS,WARD COUNCILLORS CALLING!
GET YOUR FINGER OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
on 17 Apr 2007 at 9:15 am 33.Unity said …

You’ll find the caps lock key on the left of your keyboard, next to the letter ‘A’.

Turn it off, you illiterate twat.
on 17 Apr 2007 at 11:08 am 34.Teresa Steventon said …

Carl (BMP Councillor, Carl Butler), in response to posts 9, 27 & 32 firstly let me congratulate you on paying your council tax. It must be an unhappy experience receiving letters threatening court action and I’m glad you are now up to date and are no longer breaking the law.

I am also very glad you realise that a good councillor is always at meetings. I trust you will now be seen at meetings yourself as I’m sure fellow council members have been concerned for your well being since being elected.

I would advise to be honest and make readers aware of who you are when insulting people. I understand however, why you don’t when writing libellous material. Three words, deformation of character, oh (!) and slander.

Now, no one likes a resentful, jealous person. When you have worked your ass off for over 30 years and have become successful, you too will be able to afford to buy yourself a treat. Until then try not to seem so bitter by making childish comments regarding another’s good fortune. This only reflects badly upon you.

Using CAPS LOCK whilst posting on a forum = SHOUTING!
This could make people believe you to be a hot headed bully. Isn’t it the aim of the BMP to move away from this image? Just a thought - next time, don’t use it. You don’t want to be shown up by being called a twat again.

Finally (I don’t want to give you too much to read as you’re so busy working) it is very silly to poke fun at other councillor’s leaflets after your fun packed leaflets claiming to have done other councillor’s hard work. Maybe try forgetting about leaflets completely for an hour a day and get out there in Tividale yourself. There is much work to be done and all volunteers are welcome =)
on 17 Apr 2007 at 11:20 am 35.Teresa Steventon said …

Also just in case anyone asks BMP = British Malicious Party
on 17 Apr 2007 at 11:24 am 36.working class said …

YOU MUST BE A NEW LABOUR TWAT!THE TRUTH MUST HURT TWAT!
GO AND PLAY WITH YOUR FRIENDS!THEY MAY LIKE IT!
SO YOUR PLAN IS FLOODING WARDS WITH IMMMIGRANTS
SO YOUR FRIEND KEEP THEIR JOBS!YOU EVIL TWAT!
ILLITERATE YES! SANDWELL SCHOOLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SO ROLL ON MAY!THE PEOPLE STRIKE BACK–YOU EVIL SCUM!
UNITY MY ARSE-!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
on 17 Apr 2007 at 11:41 am 37.working class said …

DEAR T STEVENTON
WHAT TOTAL RUBBISH!MORE NEW LABOUR LIES!
on 17 Apr 2007 at 6:04 pm 38.Unity said …

Sorry, what was that - flooding wards with immigrants?

I thought that Obergruppenfuehrer Griffin had decreed that the BNP were no longer a racist party - seems like the message hasn’t sunk in.
on 17 Apr 2007 at 6:10 pm 39.Bob said …

Will David Bartley be at the count as a Labour Party Teller as he was last Time ?
If my memory serves me correctly he was a supporting Tony Middleton the Labour Party Candidate in Wednesbury North .
on 19 Apr 2007 at 6:00 pm 40.David Bartley said …

My popularity is widespread. Invariably , I get invited to counts by several different candidates throughout Sandwell, regardless of the party they represent.
Over the past few years, The Conseratives, The Labour Party, The Freedom Party and an Independent candidate have invited me along, and I gratefully obliged.
The reason for my ‘across the board appeal’? No one pulls my strings! A Sandwell Council cabinet member once told me , “David, our Labour group consider you personally to be stronger opposition than all of Sandwell’s ‘non Labour’ members combined. We can’t manipulate you and shut you up.”
Any chance of an invite Bob ?
on 19 Apr 2007 at 6:14 pm 41.David Bartley said …

PERHAPS ‘WORKING CLASS’ TYPES LIKE THIS BECAUSE HE IS A CAPITALIST !!!!
on 21 Apr 2007 at 11:15 am 42.David Bartley said …

By the way mysterious ‘Bob’, I always attend the count as a guest, not a supporter of the candidate who invites me.
I presume that they enjoy my company , or perhaps they just enjoy the way I seem to irritate the Labourites in attendance.
It truly is great sport. The invitations for next month are already flowing in. YEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!
on 21 Apr 2007 at 6:38 pm 43.David Bartley said …

Come on you Labourites - Have a pop at me !!!!
I’m very, very disappointed (but not surprised) by the lack of retaliation ! Socialists my arse !!!!
on 21 Apr 2007 at 7:53 pm 44.el Tom said …

Sorry mate, I would reply if I could understand what you were saying through this wanker’s barrage. It’s funny how you can tell if someone is a BNPer simply because of the fact that they type like an anthrax victim.

Like the man said, press caps lock. As an adjunct to that, I’d also recommend punctuation.
on 23 Apr 2007 at 12:40 pm 45.working class said …

Hello Tom,
You must be fat boy slim from West Brom East?
I hear your Councillors are at work,with their dirty tricks!
Its great being liked!But not,so great for your Councillors!
also remember DO NOT CUT DOWN OTHER PARTYS-POSTERS(PLEASE!)
Please remember this is Sandwell not STALIN-WELL!
on 26 Apr 2007 at 12:08 am 46.Tiptontruth said …

I cant believe that the Tipton Bard or some of us in Tipton would know him as the Tipton Gob rearly believes that he is that popular.

As for his invite last year from the Labour candidate for Wednesbury North it would seem that you do not have any principals as you accepted the Labour candidates nomination as a counting agent only to get into the count at all costs probably because not any other candidates offered you the chance.

It is more a reflection of the Labour candidates judgement and not your popularity.

It would seem from memory that you along with others unite against the Labour candidates and Labour council to try and win at all costs even with other appalling parties as demonstrated by your antics when you jumped in the air and cheered when the BNP won last year and the year before.

I hope that the decent Tipton public see through your thin veneer and see you for what you are, and I hope that those who read the shameful and appalling account of the Sandwell Council meeting last night discussing the Holocaust Memorial Day understand the total disgust for your actions at previous election counts in support for these shameful people a total disgrace.

I hope that you reflect a moment before you reply as I will for the 6 millions poor souls who died.
on 26 Apr 2007 at 7:40 am 47.working class said …

How about the millions killed in the Bolshevik Gulags!
how about a day for them ?
It should be a day for all HOLOCAUSTS!
ITS LABOUR PLAYING THEIR SICK GAMES!
on 26 Apr 2007 at 8:32 am 48.Unity said …

I must congratulate you ‘working class’ for confirming my suspicions as to your identity.

For everyone else, let me introduce our functionally illiterate visitor properly.

Say hello to BNP Councillor for Great Bridge ward, Simon Smith, aka ‘Steve Freedom’.

BTW, I though Nick had decided, for PR purposes only, that open anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial were now grounds for summary expulsion from the BNP.

That was one of the reasons given for Sharon Ebanks’ expulsion, wasn’t it?

In which case, how come you haven’t been expelled yet?
on 26 Apr 2007 at 8:47 am 49.working class said …

How about the Red Bolshevik Gulags?
Stalin killed more people?
Why no day for them?reflect on this,
1917-1921- 2,177,474
assassinated in the civil war 1,400,000
The 1920-1921 famine? 20,240,000 (Stalin made)
The 1932/33 famine anther 10 million!Stalin again!
1940 six million perished
GOD!NEED I GO ON!
Why no day for them?we should not forget!
+ANY HOLOCAUST+
on 26 Apr 2007 at 9:38 am 50.David Bartley said …

Tiptontruth? If you tell the truth, you should have the balls to put your name to your comments. You haven’t. You are a bag of washing.
Labour has a lot of opposition in Sandwell, from left, right and centre. I suggest you should consider WHY this is the case.
As I have previously said , SOCIALISTS MY ARSE.
By the way, accepting Labour’s invite to last years count had me (and others) laughing all the way to Gospel Oak.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.
plonkers !!!!
on 26 Apr 2007 at 11:20 am 51.Unity said …

Simon:

Stalin, himself, once said that ‘one death is tragedy, one million deaths is a statistic’ as I’m sure you are aware.

In dealing with atrocities committed on that scale, the actual numbers involved are, to a considerable extent, immaterial as regardless of whether one is considering the Nazi Holocaust or Stalin’s purge, the scale of each is beyond human comprehension.

To try and minimise the horrors of the Nazi death camps by making facile comparisons of scale with Stalin’s purges is akin to suggesting that Jeffrey Dahmer was a better human being than Ted Bundy because he only murdered 17 people to Bundy’s 30+.

What gives the Nazi holocaust a very different character to Stalin’s purges or the mass killing of Kurds and Marsh Arabs by the Ba’athist regime in Iraq is the underlying intent behind those atrocities.

The deaths attributable to Stalin fall into to two basic categories - those who died as a consequence of the incompetent application of Marxist ideas to a what was still a largely agrarian/peasant society, i.e. the starvation that resulted from the imposition of collective farming and those who were killed because they we considered by Stalin to be political opponents, be they internal opponents of Stalin’s regime or those who fought on the side of fascism during World War II.

As far a drawing parallels to other dictators, the former is best compared to the actions of Robert Mugabe, who’s policies has all but destroyed farming in Zimbabwe to the point where a country that was once the breadbasket of Southern Africa can no longer feeds its own population, while the latter is comparable to the actions of Saddam Hussein - the Ba’athists murdered both the Kurds and the Marsh Arabs not because of ethnic or religious differences but because both were political opponents of the ruling regime.

If one treats the scale of Stalin’s purges for what it really was - no more than a reflection of the size of the population over which he exercise near absolute authority and the industrial technology he had to hand in order to effect these killings, then in all other respects Stalin, like Saddam, Mugabe and so many others, was a rather unremarkable, and even banal, tyrant.

We should, of course, not forget these atrocities but we should also not forget that which elevates the Nazi holocaust into an altogether different and more terrible category of human barbarity than even the worst efforts of Stalin - the fact that the Nazi holocaust was predicated on entirely false biological theories of race - theories to which, I made add, you personally subscribe, as is plainly evident from your writings on Stormfront under the pseudonym ‘Steve Freedom’.

We should, of course, remember the victims of all such atrocities, but we should also be clear in our understanding that the Nazi Holocaust stands apart from the actions of Stalin, the events that took place at Srebrenica during the Bosnian war and Saddam’s suppression of the Kurds and Marsh Arabs because alone, in the modern era, it represents a deliberate and systematic attempt to exterminate entire populations (Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals) due to their ethnic/social heritage and/or characteristics.

So far as there having been any other comparable atrocities in recent human history, it seems possible that one could consider the Armenian and Assyrian genocides perpetrated by the Ottomans to be, potentially, of similar character. Whether this would be an accurate assessment I’m not entirely sure as my knowledge of the history of these events and the motives behind them is a little sketchy, although should Mr Eugenides happen to look in and offer an opinion on this question then I would be inclined to defer to his good judgement as he is far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am.

We should also be most assiduous in our remembrance of the Holocaust precisely because, even today, there are lying fascist scumbags, like yourself, who continue to subscribe to the same false racial theories upon which the Holocaust was predicated and who, because, they subscribe to those theories, endeavour still to try to deny that the events of the Holocaust occurred or promote a false history in which those events are trivialised.

We remember the Holocaust not only because we have moral duty to remember those who died because the false beliefs you hold and seek to promote whether as victims of the Nazis or in the fight to liberate Europe from fascism but also out of a duty to future generations to ensure that it NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN!
on 26 Apr 2007 at 12:29 pm 52.working class said …

The fact still stands,why no day for them?
What about the Kabardines and the Balkers from the Caucasus.
Who got wiped out?Stalin again?
But hey! Its no good for throwing at the BNP is it?
Whats that song? about your partys red flag?
The same flag as Stalins,The flag of death!
Its estimated that 100 million people have died at the hands of Communists in the Twentieth century.
Why no day for them?Why no history lessons in school?
It should be a day for everyone!
on 26 Apr 2007 at 1:16 pm 53.Unity said …

Is that all you can do, Simon?

Harp on incessantly about the Bolsheviks in the vain hope that no one will notice that refused to support a motion that, by default, condemned the actions of your hero, Adolf Hitler.

How many of those who voted for you in Great Bridge last time out do you think would vote for you again, knowing that their grandparents generation fought, and in many cases died, to defend Britain from the man you idolise, Adolf Hitler, a man you even compared to Jesus?

Knowing that about you, would they see you as patriot or a traitor?

Personally, I think the latter is most likely - you may be able to fool some of the people, some of the time but not all of the people all of time and the truth, as they say will out.

What was it you said on Stormfront?

I’d certainly agree with the notion that “holocaust denial”… should be avoided amongst Joseph and Josephine Public.. but then again anything that challenges the average attention span should be as well… One idea forming in my mind lately is think and study deeply but communicate superficially, touching on what sales people call the “hot spots”

How long do you think you can keep this up before the people of Tipton rumble you and your fascist mates? Before they realise just exactly how much contempt you actually have for them?

You think people won’t notice that your own party’s leader on Sandwell Council has been officially deemed unfit to run a local pub after failing to report violent incidents to the police and refusing to cooperate with their investigations? Or that both his sons are currently in prison, one of whom was described by the local police as being responsible for around 30% of the criminal activity in his local area.

One thing you can say of both the police and Sandwell Council is that they’ve been tough and tough on the causes of crime by banging up both of Jamie Lloyd’s kids and shutting down the Lagoon.

Do you think women in Tipton would be impressed by your ‘Brunhilde’ fixation? Or by this…

Men work Women weep. The good women WNs are better than the men, more guts etc etc this fight is predominately for the men – it has to be. The men have got to stop being cissies.

You do still live at home with your parents don’t you? What a surprise?

And let’s not get started on the stuff about UFO’s… wouldn’t want people to think they’d voted for a complete nutter, would we?
on 26 Apr 2007 at 2:41 pm 54.David Bartley said …

I thought this Blog was about West Bromwich West !
Let’s get back to pulling the wings off those pathetic Labour councillors ! It’s these individuals who are forcing the electorate to turn right ! They are a disgrace to the original Labour movement ! Socialists my hairy arse !!!!
on 26 Apr 2007 at 2:53 pm 55.Tiptontruth said …

Well well David you totally missed the point or didn’t want to tell the good people of Tipton and Sandwell what you really stand for.

As it is quite evident that you couldn’t even pause for thought and remember the 6 million who died at the hands of these Nazis.

Your mask is dropping again and your true beliefs are floating to the top, you couldn’t confirm whether you cheered and jumped in the air when the BNP won.

Why not tell the people what you did. are you ashamed or frightened that any respectability you think you have will be lost if the good people of Sandwell know your true beliefs.

Your selective responses and totally ignoring the BNP and its appalling 4 members show a clear link with yourself and them.

DO YOU CARE DAVID

I dont think so, a win at all costs attitude even making deals with these Holocaust deniers shame on you.
on 26 Apr 2007 at 4:07 pm 56.David Bartley said …

No ‘TIPTONTRUTH’, my mask isn’t dropping, I don’t wear one.
You are the coward who hasn’t got the courage to put your name after your comments. Shame on YOU.
I consider Sandwell’s Labour group to be my enemy. They announced that Tipton Baths would reopen AFTER they lost seats to The BNP ! The facility was not reopened for the benefit of the people, it was reopened to save the backsides of the remaining Labour councillors. I can’t forgive them for that.
Had they acted earlier, it would have been oh so different as far as I am concerned.
Consequently, I get a degree of enjoyment each time a Labour councillor loses a seat in the borough, whether it falls to The Respect Party, The Tories, The Liberals,The BNP, an independent or The Raving Loony Party.
Like many other Tiptonians, my cross will not go next to the name of a Labour candidate. The bitterness remains.
By the way, the only time I ‘jump in the air’ is when The Wolves score !
on 26 Apr 2007 at 5:58 pm 57.Tiptontruth said …

Well their we finally have it a confession from his own mouth cheering anyone who wins against a Labour candidate even if it is a BNP win.

As I said previously a win at any costs a complete opportunitist a leech who attaches himself to a host even the dispicable nazis that we have in Tipton who are a party who’s local leaders offspring have been locked up for serious crimes against Tipton people.

How low does a party have to get before you think David! hold on here should I be supporting and cheering its success?

What does it take David 6 million murdered 7 million, 8 million or are you of the same elk as Simon Smith aka Steve Freedom.

It would seem David that “The Bathman” has gone off the deep end and has lost his sense of reality. You compare the proposed closure of Tipton Baths which was kept open before the elections not after, and the loss of millions at the hands of the Nazis and losing a swimming baths. How shallow can you get in your logic of support for the BNP.

I hope that those who read these blogs pass on the message of your true beliefs and question your motives of trying to remain respectable as I said your mask has fallen off you will be now known as an appeaser for these Nazi supporters.

Condemed by your own entries.

Finally David you didn’t mention once the 6 million poor souls murdered by the nazis.

Your silence is deafening.
on 26 Apr 2007 at 6:26 pm 58.Tiptontruth said …

Well David your mask has fallen off no pretence then you will support any party that defeats the Labour candidate.

By your own admission an appeaser for the BNP nazi party. In the full knowledge of the facts and information provided by Unity and others about the aborhant deniers of the holocaust and the killing of 6 million poor souls.

Yourt logic that the Tipton baths proposed closure is your sole reasoning for your support for this vile party is in itself a 100% appeasers excuse.

I would suggest that The Bathman has gone off the deep end and has lost any respectability that you had. By the way the baths stayed open before the elections and not after the elections as you said previously.

I posed to you earlier, to pause and think of the 6 million poor soles who died in the holocaust.

Your silence is deafening again the baths issue more important to you than the 6 million murdered by the nazis.

How many would it take David 7 million 8 million 9 million or even 10 million what price David.

I hope you have the courage to apologise to the good men and women of the Tipton Royal British Legion some of whom had to liberate these concentration camps and still remember what they saw. I hope you resign from this superb organisation if not I hope action will be considered to expel you.

Hang your head in shame David “The Bathman” Bartley.
on 26 Apr 2007 at 10:07 pm 59.David Bartley said …

The invites to the count are rolling in. Three so far, including one from a LABOUR candidate ! I kid you not.
See you on Thursday. It promises to be a memorable night.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!
on 26 Apr 2007 at 10:18 pm 60.David Bartley said …

YYYYYIIIIIIIIIPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!
I AM SO BLOODY HAPPY !!!!
YA HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
DAVID ‘THE TIPTON GOB ‘ BARTLEY !!!!
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!
on 26 Apr 2007 at 10:44 pm 61.David Bartley said …

When I started contributing to this Blog, I thought I was entering a red hot cauldron. How wrong I was ! What a bunch of pussycats ! DAVID BARTLEY.
on 26 Apr 2007 at 10:48 pm 62.David Bartley said …

Come on ‘Working Class’, give ‘em some stick !!!!!
on 26 Apr 2007 at 10:52 pm 63.David Bartley said …

OK ! OK ! I admit it, the wine is flowing !!!! XXXXXXX
on 26 Apr 2007 at 11:16 pm 64.Unity said …

I think this needs a little clarification for readers who don’t live in Tipton - or in David’s case, Royston Vesey.

In 2002, Sandwell Council took the decision to close Tipton Swimming Baths, which were becoming increasingly run down and, at the time, uneconomical to run due to low usage by local people.

This is not an uncommon situation in local politics - communities have amenities that are frequently taken for granted and are undervalued/neglected by the majority of the community, until its suggested that those amenities should close.

This prompted a local campaign to keep the baths open - as Joni Mitchell once sang, you don’t know what you’ve got ’til its gone - which included the formation of ‘community party’ that consisted of nothing more that some of the baths campaigners and a former Labour councillor who’d been deselected by the party but still retained a fair sized personal vote.

The upshot of this was that the community party split the Labour vote in Great Bridge, which resulted in the election of a BNP councillor named David Watkins - the single most incompetent councillor in Sandwell’s history.

In the twelve months before he stood down, Watkins managed to attend a mere 10 out 63 Council meetings and did nothing at all for the people of Great Bridge - he couldn’t even managed to hold his councillor’s surgeries in the ward he was supposed to be represent.

Nevertheless, this small exercise in local democracy had the desired effect inasmuch is cause the council to reconsider its decision and refurbish and reopen the baths.

For anyone other than a complete obsessive that would be the end of the matter, but as you can see, David - who chaired the Save the Baths campaign - seems incapable of accepting even an outright victory with anything approaching good grace.

That said, the question that David should really be answer, notwithstanding the obvious animosity he harbours toward the town Labour councillors, is whether he really believes that the people of Tipton, who I know to be by and large a decent bunch having worked in the Town for several years for the NHS, are well served by having four BNP councillors…

One of whom is racist, mysogynist, holocaust denier who’s purile outpourings on a fascist forum as documented on this blog in this post:

Do go ahead and read that post in full, David - you may well find it most illuminating, especially as from other comments in this thread, it’s apparent that the BNP councillors whose comments appear in that post is the same ‘working class’ you’ve been egging on while posting here of late.

Another, who leads the BNP group in the council, was deemed unfit to run a pub after he failed to report two serious violent incidents (a gun attack and a machete attack) and then refused to hand over CCTV footage of one of the attacks to the local police, voted illegally on the council’s budget while in arrears on his council tax and has two sons (both in prison) one of whom was described the local police as being responsible for around 30% of the crime in his local area.

A third moved out of his family home and back to his parents property a mere five days after being elected, not because he separated from his wife - he is still believed to be cohabiting with her - but because (allegedly) by creating the appearance that the couple had separated he ensured that his wife could continue to claim welfare benefits, including housing and council tax benefit, while he claimed his £10,000 a year allowance for being a councillor.

As for the fourth, my understanding is that his domiciliary arrangements may also be attracting some interest in certain quarters.

That’s the real question here - is Tipton really better off for being ‘represented’ by people like that?
on 26 Apr 2007 at 11:35 pm 65.David Bartley said …

Well, since they were elected, WE GOT OUR BATHS BACK !!!!
on 26 Apr 2007 at 11:53 pm 66.David Bartley said …

‘Unity’ credits me with an ‘outright victory’. Oh no, I’ve only just started !
‘Outright victory’ will be celebrated when Labour are booted out of Sandwell.
on 27 Apr 2007 at 7:17 am 67.working class said …

Hello Folks,
What has New (CON)Labour ever done for the people of Sandwell?
What about local housing?Have you asked Sandwell Homes for housing!
The Labour Party in Sandwell has been rubbish for years!
They dont give a toss about the true people of this land!
They just like looking after NUMBER ONE!YOU KNOW WHO!
MUST GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOCAL HONES FOR LOCAL PEOPLE! PLEASE!
on 27 Apr 2007 at 8:33 am 68.working class said …

SANDWELL NEWS
Labour Councillor from Tipton has been found in france looking for Asylum-Seekers(Needs the help!)
Reports claim,He was handing out maps of Tipton!
on 27 Apr 2007 at 8:38 am 69.Unity said …

SANDWELL NEWS

Three of the four BNP councillors in Sandwell are lazy bastards who cannot be bothered to go out and get a fucking job!
on 27 Apr 2007 at 9:39 am 70.David Bartley said …

Some of my comments are not appearing. Seems like ‘Unity’ is deciding which David Bartley comments appear. Somebody’s arse twitching ?
on 27 Apr 2007 at 12:02 pm 71.Unity said …

Actually, David, any delays in your comments appearing are simply a function of my having to fetch the odd one or two out of the automated spam filter.

If you must insist on behaving like a bullshit machine-gun then I’m afraid that will happen from time to time, as the repeated posting of complete bollocks over a very short interval does tend to trigger it off.
on 27 Apr 2007 at 12:11 pm 72.Unity said …

David:

Neither of the BNP councillors elected in 2003 lasted more than 12 months.

One, David Watkins, was - as I mentioned - completely useless to the extent of attending a mere 10 out of 63 meetings over the year and failing to hold a single surgery in the ward to which he was elected.

Neither made any useful contribution to the decision to re-open the baths.

As for a complete victory - I wouldn’t say that. Didn’t you stand against the Council Leader, Bill Thomas, in Rowley and come fourth?

You still haven’t answered my question about whether you think that the BNP councillors you have at the moment reflect well on Tipton - perhaps I should give my old colleague Nigel Self a ring and see what he thinks?

Oh, and do you really think that its a good idea for someone who campaigned to re-open a swimming pool to be - seeming - supporting the election of Nazis?

Swimming baths do have showers, you know, and we all know what happens when put Nazis and showers together, don’t we?
on 27 Apr 2007 at 12:30 pm 73.David Bartley said …

I never stood against Big Bill. I’d have beat him. I don’t need to be a councillor to get things done - You know that.
If ever I stand as a candidate, you’ll know about it alright.
See you Thursday night. XXXXXXXX
on 27 Apr 2007 at 1:51 pm 74.David Bartley said …

Regarding my comments not appearing; I accept your reasons and consequently apologise. Sorry. (However I do not own up to the ‘Bullshit & Bollocks’, I’ll leave that for Unity & Tiptontruth to churn out.)
Fancy a pint in the Gospel Oak before the count on Thursday ?
Genuine offer - I’ll buy you a pint.
on 27 Apr 2007 at 2:43 pm 75.working class said …

SANDWELL NEWS
Labour helpers seen pulling down street posters?
Thats not very good is it!(TIVIDALE)
on 27 Apr 2007 at 3:06 pm 76.Unity said …

Oh, I wouldn’t say that - I’m all for a bit of neighbourhood clean-up as long as they recycle?

BTW - has your Tividale candidate got a job yet?

Oh, no sorry - the candidate there is the one whose husband ‘moved’ to West Bromwich no soon as he was elected to the council and entitled to claim an allowance, which meant he could no longer claim benefits, isn’t it?

That promises to be a bit awkward if she gets elected - fancy being a councillor in the same ward as her ‘estranged’ husband and their having to do surgeries together. Won’t that create a bit of funny atmosphere, or do you think it might just throw them back together…

What do you reckon, if she gets in do you think there might be a reconciliation in the offing?
on 27 Apr 2007 at 7:11 pm 77.David Bartley said …

Fact; The announcement that Tipton Baths would reopen was made AFTER two BNP councillors were elected. I was at the full council meeting when Bill Thomas made the announcement. I was on the balcony with a number of other Tiptonians. The two newly elected BNP members were in the council chambers on that evening. Get your facts right for once ‘Tiptontruth’. I suggest you change your title to ‘Tiptonshite’.
The decision was made to help Labour’s vunerable councillors - not the people of the town. We all know that.
These pathetic members deserve a kick up the jacksy !
on 28 Apr 2007 at 8:51 am 78.working class said …

Please Please please!YOU must stop telling lies!
The people of West Bromwich know your a party of Bullshine!!!!!
SANDWELL NEWS
Labour Councillor in Tipton,
Labour Councillor is after more homes in Tipton(votes)
He has been seen on ASDA car park with his note pad!
He told our reporter,
We need more IMMMIGRANTS=======I MEAN Homes, (VOTES)
God the cats out of the bag!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
on 28 Apr 2007 at 9:48 am 79.David Bartley said …

On Thursday, May 2007, thousands of the electorate in West Bromwich West will vote BNP. Your ‘Tiptontruths’ of this world would have us believe that all of these voters are evil. THEY ARE NOT ! The vast,vast majority are ordinary people who are disillusioned with the failing Labour controlled council which has ruled for over 30 years.
The modern day Labourites do more than anyone , when it comes to driving people to the right! The BNP’ers just sit back, do bugger all, then get elected. Get your act together! Put the people first! YOU ARE TO BLAME !!!!
You deserve a kick up the arse - You just might get a kick up the bollocks !!!!
on 28 Apr 2007 at 2:51 pm 80.working class said …

Labour Councillor seen in Great Bridge
on 28 Apr 2007 at 2:54 pm 81.working class said …

Better late then never!Labour my arse!
SORRY FORGET MY ARSE
YOU NEVER KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
on 28 Apr 2007 at 10:44 pm 82.Tiptontruth said …

Hi Unity I note you have looked at the deals made by the Tories and the BNP in Sandwell more to come out.

It would seem that being elected to the council as a BNP councillor has some interesting side effects firstly they leave home and allows the partner to continue claiming benefits.

Secondly it seems that at election time they suddenly get close again even seeking to be nominated from the same addresses again?

Thirdly why dont any BNP councilors or candidates put themselves forward to be school govenors?

Could it be that they need enhanced Criminal checks which might throw up past crimes?

Just a thought! more on that soon

Oh I forgot David 6 Million poor souls murdered by the Nazis

Still no comment is it that easy to forget what about the Tipton Royal British Legion? you even give readings in Tipton churches wearing the insignia.

How do you square this!
on 29 Apr 2007 at 2:33 pm 83.working class said …

Because the schools are run by wankers like you!
They must be PC-sorry no BNP!IE ANTI BRITISH!
ALSO THANK SEARCHLIGHT!THEIR HELP WAS MUCH NEEDED!
You should look at some of your Councillors,MATE!
Driving over Brum for rent boys!so fuck off!
How about the millions killed by your heros!
STALIN!ETC but thats ok?
on 29 Apr 2007 at 3:53 pm 84.David Bartley said …

‘Tiptontruth’, my anti Labour stance has been caused by the arrogance, ignorance and complacancy of Sandwell’s Labour coucillors. During the Tipton Baths campaign, they did nothing to help the people. Our persistance won the day,however,the fact that two seats fell to the BNP was the council’s ‘turning point. That hurts me.
Ask Adrian Bailey to show you the letter I wrote to him just days before those first two seats were lost. Bill Thomas and Linda Horton received two similar letters. Go on , ask them.
I am a great believer in the strength of the pen. I am a great believer in publicly (not anonymously) speaking out. I am a great believer in peaceful (sometimes loud),(sometimes humorous), protests.
‘Tiptontruth’,for some reason you appear to be insinuating that I am a Nazi ! Just because I oppose your twopenny halfpenny Labour council does not make me a Nazi ! Grow up you stupid twat !
For the record, I am as apalled as anyone can be about their horrific actions ! I despise all such actions ! Talk to some of your fellow Labourites in the borough who know me . They call me a lot of names, but a Nazi ? Don’t talk such tripe !
Anyway, what about this pint in the Gospel Oak on Thursday night? Any takers ? I hate drinking on my own.
on 29 Apr 2007 at 9:11 pm 85.Tiptontruth said …

David the reason the good people of Tipton are questioning your views is quite simple you are condemed by your own writings the very thing you want recognition for.

Your support at all costs for these appeasers and deniers can only lead me and others to conclued that you share the same vile views.

I note that you are appalled as anyone would be about their horrific actions and despise all such actions! all I say is practice what you preach.

If you openly support these vile people how do you think the good people of Tipton and Sandwell and now the BBC with your witty poetry how do you think the good listening population would view you knowing what you have written recently.

As for the local Labourites they maybe taken in but those who have more Liberal views will not be.

As for Simon the denier I pray for all souls lost through atrocities whoever they maybe and who ever took their precious lives.

Finally I have been told some gossip about an incident in Bluebell Wood Sedgley about 15 years ago has does anyone remember this? More to come I have no doubt.
on 29 Apr 2007 at 10:58 pm 86.David Bartley said …

‘Tiptontruth’, regarding what I have written recently: It has been ‘anti Sandwell Labour’. Anyone who studies my comments will realise that you are over-reacting with your insulting remarks.
The Tipton British Legion invited me to join as their resident poet. I suggest that you read my wartime poetry which is always warmly received by them, both my serious, and when appropriate,light hearted verse. One poem in particular entitled “Blerm ‘im” will itself prove your suspicions wrong.
I suggest that few people share your wide of the mark , one-eyed, views about me.
My response to your anonymous comments proves that I am concerned that anyone should have such a dreadful opinion of me. However, if you are simply trying to bully me into ‘laying off’ your pitiful Labour council, you can go and roast your bollocks !
on 30 Apr 2007 at 7:04 am 87.working class said …

Sandwell News
Its looking bad for your friends!
Its about time your party had a kick up the backside!
Labour my arse!working class BOLLOCKS!
on 01 May 2007 at 7:06 am 88.working class said …

SANDWELL NEWS
PEOPLE OF SANDWELL…YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU!
LABOUR MY ARSE!VOTE BNP!
on 01 May 2007 at 8:15 am 89.Unity said …

How come you’re spending so much time here, Simon?

Wouldn’t be because your councillor website was shut down because you disregarded the terms of use for it, would it?
on 01 May 2007 at 10:33 pm 90.David Bartley said …

I reckon Labour could lose 4 Sandwell seats on Thursday. This would reduce their number to 46 out of 72. A little healthier, but the people of the borough will benefit when the figure is nearer to 36.
For far too long, Labour has ruled (and failed), without serious opposition.
I wish my dear friend, Beatrice all the best in Princes End, although her Labour opponent is one of his party’s good guys (and they are few and far between).
Let us remember that Thursday’s election is a democratic process (despite the inevitable controversy the postal vote always causes),and the people’s decisions should be respected.
Let’s not insult the electorate just because they put their cross in a particular box.
Democracy is vital. We may detest other individuals views, but we must demand the right for them to cast their vote.
I vote for Democracy. X
on 04 May 2007 at 2:04 am 91.Unity said …

Sorry to disappoint you both, but one gain each for us and the Lib Dems and no success for the BNP.

Awwwww!

David, I will say you’re not wrong about the need for better opposition - whether better means serious or simple competent is another matter.
on 04 May 2007 at 3:38 pm 92.working class said …

Not better opposition,Dear Unity. but NO POSTAL VOTES!
Your friends can now go back to SLEEP!
SEE YOU SOON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
on 05 May 2007 at 7:57 am 93.working class said …

Dear Unity
Please tell you know who?he must stop going over Brum.
The truth will come out!(not good for Labour!)
He might end up in SEARCHLIGHT!(NEVER!LABOUR FUNDED!)
on 05 May 2007 at 9:47 am 94.David Bartley said …

Congratulations to every candidate who got elected. To the ones who didn’t - keep your peckers up, Sandwell’s Labour Council must be challenged.
Now then, you must all agree that AL WATCHEM was the star of the show at the count ! XXXX
on 05 May 2007 at 10:24 am 95.David Bartley said …

Unity, regarding your ’showers’ comments above (No 72).
I dedicated 3 years of my life to the Tipton Baths campaign, which ensured that the kids of Tipton did not lose a vital facility.
Please consider an apology regarding those comments.
Yours Sincerely, David Bartley.
on 05 May 2007 at 1:30 pm 96.working class said …

No David, (no94)
The star of the show was FAT BOY SLIM!(DEK)
I hear the BURGER van was on call!
Did you all like your work out this year!
Did your friends enjoy walking their wards? (SOME DID!)
NEWS FLASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Asylum seekers found on ASDA car park?(GREAT BRIDGE)
The group of Asylum seekers are reportrd as saying
WE NEED FAT BOY SLIM]WE NEED COUNCIL HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!
REPORTS SAY,
THEY ARE LOOKING FOR A FAT TWAT CALLED DEK!
LAST SEEN HANGING AROUND TIPTON GREEN!
on 05 May 2007 at 5:30 pm 97.David Bartley said …

Do you mean Sergeant Bilco ? (No (96).
on 06 May 2007 at 8:37 am 98.working class said …

Thats the one!(97)
NEWS FLASH!!!!!!!!!!!
Local reports claim,
Fat Boy Slim (Bilco)has been seen in his friends pub.
(THE ONE WHO HELPED LABOUR IN GREAT BRIDGE!)
on 06 May 2007 at 1:56 pm 99.David Bartley said …

Re comment 98 : Perhaps the pub sells extra large pies !
on 07 May 2007 at 8:22 am 100.working class said …

No David (99)
Just a extra size bed! TIPTON GREEN CALLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOVE IS IN THE AIR!!!!TIPTON GREEN CALLING***
on 07 May 2007 at 10:48 pm 101.Tiptontruth said …

I thought ” Al Watchman ” stunt showed how you need treatment from the men in white coats and also how you treat democracy.
Mind you you didn,t have anything to cheer about did you.

The contributions you and the Great Bridge appeaser are all the same personal attacks on Labour members with no comments on any of the BNP’s lot.

You know who your colleague working class is aka Simon Smith the holocaust denier and still you dont care do you David, you try to deny it but you are peas in a pod.

Your support for Beatrice really cost her and she might realise that to give you a ticket to the election count has to be the biggest vote loser she could have made because the Tipton people have seen through you once and for all.
on 08 May 2007 at 8:43 am 102.working class said …

Dear Tiptontruth
Whats your party know about DEMOCRACY!
The Labour Party is just full of BULLSHINE!
Your just a bunch of Marxist reds (SANDWELL)
What has your party ever done for the people of Sandwell?
Come on Tiptontruth!
Ten years of Labour!But one point is true?
Your party did say, they would open the FLOOD gates!
Working class my ARSE!
on 08 May 2007 at 12:13 pm 103.Unity said …

When, exactly, are you up for re-election Simon?

Can’t wait for the chance to show the people of Great Bridge what a low-grade holocaust-denying moron they had the misfortune to elect.
on 08 May 2007 at 12:14 pm 104.Unity said …

I should say that what we do know about democracy is that your lot failed to win a single seat last week…
on 08 May 2007 at 6:15 pm 105.David Bartley said …

Re comment 101: ‘Tiptontruth’, I seriously considered not responding to your drivel. Even so, here goes:

First of all the name’s Watchem - Al Watchem. The theatrical presence of this character symbolised Western democracy,proving that people are allowed to express their views,however unorthodox. The only part of the election count which I considered undemocratic, was the postal vote - it stinks !

You compare me to ‘Working Class’, but the truth of the matter is: YOU are out of the same mould ! You both hide behind a faceless mask, and you both encourage people ( in your different ways ) to drift towards the political right.

Anyway, that’s enough about the insignificant, let’s move on to someone who is very significant: Take a bow Cllr Terry Williams. Last week Cllr Williams resigned from the Labour party, and will now serve as an Independent councillor on Sandwell Council. This was a positive protest against Labour’s policies. What a pity other Labour councillors don’t follow their instincts, instead of having their strings pulled. Congratulations Cllr Williams on setting such an honourable example.
on 08 May 2007 at 7:36 pm 106.Tiptontruth said …

sorry David I was not at the count but was told by someone who was there so the message got diluted on the way.

As for Terry Williams he is a good man but you missed out a significant part of his statement for leaving the Labour party that being he had issue with the national labour government and its policies that he disagreed with not the local Sandwell Labour Party with which he will be still supportive of.

Oh by the way I have already stated that I have liberal views so dont make the assumption that I am a Blairite just a concerned Tiptonian who doesn’t like being portrayed in the media as being right wing facists like those who you have previously supported.
on 08 May 2007 at 9:50 pm 107.David Bartley said …

‘Tiptontruth’, I don’t & haven’t ’supported’ any particular party. I have never , and do not intend to join any poltical party. I believe that any individual should be able to speak his or her mind without fear of being gagged or labelled an extremist - left or right.
I have strong wiews on a variety of issues, some may be considered left, some right. Left winger ? Right winger ? I consider myself as a centre forward.
I do not have a closed mind. Consequently, and you may well have trouble accepting this, I have a degree of popularity with ALL political parties and their followers. With a few exeptions ( and you appear to be one of them in your anonymous capacity) my open mind and willingness to exercise my right to freedom of speech is admired.
‘Tiptontruth’; bullying, embarrassing and gagging people into silence is not the answer to our problems. People who have been silenced are usually more dangerous than people who shout their views fom the rooftops.
I encourage people to speak out ! Consider this ‘Tiptontruth’; George Galloway is one of my political heroes. The way he travelled to the USA, looked the nation in the eye, and gave it to ‘em straight was inspirational ! Mind blowing !
On the other hand, Enoch Powell earned similar respect. He said it how he saw it. Agree with them or not, they spoke their minds. How many of today’s MPs and councillors can honestly say the same ? Their strings are pulled, and the people whom they are supposed to represent invariably suffer.
I say speak your mind ! Left, right or centre ! And we should be allowed to do so !
on 08 May 2007 at 10:17 pm 108.David Bartley said …

Unity, still no response to my comment (No 95)…………
on 08 May 2007 at 11:16 pm 109.Unity said …

David:

As far as the showers comment goes it stands as written, i.e. as an effort to remind you -and others - to have care as to exactly who and what you may sometimes create the appearance of associating with.

Feel free to peruse the collected works of ‘Steve Freedom’ aka Cllr Simon Smith aka ‘working class’ here.

Go on, take a good long look - judging by your last comments, you’ll find this remark illuminating.

“I’d certainly agree with the notion that “holocaust denial” as you put it, should be avoided amongst Joseph and Josephine Public.. but then again anything that challenges the average attention span should be as well…”

In case your wondering, the trail of evidence that allowed my to connect Smith with his Stormfront user name is covered in the article, and as for IDing him as ‘working class’ not only do I have access to information through my blog that’s not available to the public, but the Bolsheviks rant was a dead give away - he tried the same thing citing the references in putting up his incoherent ‘amendment’ to the council motion supporting a commemoration of Holocaust Memorial Day.

There’s nothing wrong with charting an independent course but keep a careful for stowaways if you do and be sure you understand that their motives may be anything but as honest as your own.

I worked in Tipton for three years (with Nigel as it happens) and I from Rowley, so I know the community very well and understand how people think. The majority of people there who voted BNP aren’t fascists, they’re pissed off with their lot and looking for an outlet to vent their frustrations. That, unfortunately, leaves them open to manipulation by people to pretend to speak for them while all the time pursuing their own agendas.

Here another couple of Smith’s remarks for you to mull over:

“It’s hard to say , but I want White Denmark to beat the mongrel “England” team…

Blacks and half Blacks will never be English - Hell will freeze over first”

And.

“Many years ago my local team West Bromwich Albion beat Oldham 1 -0 to reach div 1, but F*** football, my team plays in the all White strip ! (and I don’t mean Leeds !)”

I’m a Baggie (4th generation as it happens) and if you know any Baggies - and you should do living in Tipton, you’ll have a fair idea of how we feel seeing a twat like Smith shitting on the memory of the late, great, Laurie Cunningham let alone insulting greats like Cyrille Regis and Brendan Batson.

You think he admits to holding views like that when he’s anywhere near any of the Tipton Baggies? Like hell he does, because then people would see him for what he is and then where would he be?
on 09 May 2007 at 4:53 am 110.working class said …

Unity
The point being,(104)
It has taken Searchlight,UFA and postal votes!
Will you show some light on Labours postal vote scam!
But going back?what has Labour ever done for the people of
Sandwell?
Tipton baths?,West brom Baths?Waste money!meals on wheels!
How about insulting our War Heros!(WW1&WW2)
Flooding our Country with Immigrants!
Thats insulting,Unity!
They had no vote on IMMIGRATION!
The British people never had a say!FULL STOP!
Just put up or shut up!
INSULTING is no go areas in Sandwell!
Thats insulting!need i go on!
Football is just a game!
on 09 May 2007 at 4:56 am 111.working class said …

POSTAL VOTES ARE A SCAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BUT YOU KNOW THAT! MR UNITY!LABOUR MY ARSE
on 09 May 2007 at 8:09 pm 112.David Bartley said …

Re (109); Nigel is a fine, fine man. I think the world of him, and have nothing but respect for him.
Unity, send him my regards when you next see him.
I still think that your ’showers’ connection was below the belt. I know that I invited you labourites to ‘have a pop’ at me, but that was uncalled for.
on 13 May 2007 at 5:01 pm 113.Tiptontruth said …

Reading the last few blogs it seems that Unity has touched a raw nerve here.

We have David worrying about a showers comment why?

I took it as this is a reference to the concentration camps where the nazies exterminated millions of people. Is their something else you are telling us Unity.

I will be interseted with Davids responses to the evidence Unity provides regarding the comments and outing of Working Class aka Steve Freedom and Great Bridge Councillor Simon Smith who is now putting self around as the BNP leader in Sandwell.

I hope David reads carefully and comments accordingly I wait with interest to see if he truely has an open mind or as he previously has stated a blinkered view!
on 13 May 2007 at 8:28 pm 114.David Bartley said …

What on earth are you talking about,’Tiptonshite’ ?
on 14 May 2007 at 7:15 am 115.working class said …

Dear Tiptonshit
on 14 May 2007 at 8:32 am 116.working class said …

Tiptontruth
Point one…are you FAT BOY SLIM?
Point two…stop the name calling(PLEASE)
Look Tiptontruth,
The British people never had a vote on having their Country
flooded with immigrants…DID THEY!
CUT THE BULLSHNE…YOUR THE REAL NAZIS!
BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
on 14 May 2007 at 9:14 pm 117.Bob said …

I think we had a referendum on your policies between 1939 and 1945 . Cllr Smith . If you want to know who voted have a look at that big stone thing in Tipton park it has their names carved on it .when it comes to put up or shut up ,they did.
on 14 May 2007 at 10:23 pm 118.David Bartley said …

Any news on Sergeant Bilko ? Otherwise known as ‘The Phantom Tipton Pie Scoffer’ !
on 15 May 2007 at 7:05 am 119.working class said …

No NO…
They did not fight for that!more spin!
The fight was for our BRITISH WAY OF LIFE!
It was for the people of Tipton.West Brom Britain etc!
It was not for a land… full of IMMMIGRANTS!
SHAME ON YOUR SOULS!your kind STINK!
on 15 May 2007 at 7:10 am 120.working class said …

TIPTON NEWS
Reports claim…
Bilkos loving it in TIPTON GREEN!HAY MAN!
LOADS OF PIES!PLUS YOU KNOW WHO!
Whats that song?……. LOVERS!
on 15 May 2007 at 8:29 am 121.Unity said …

Yes, Simon, the fight was for OUR British way of life, but then that’s not YOUR way of life is it?

Perhaps you’d care to give a talk or two at local branches of the Royal British Legion on one of your pet subjects…

13 Reasons why Hitler was like Jesus - should go down a storm with some of our surviving veterans.

Enjoy the poster, Simon, BTW. Next time you’re up for re-election you’ll be seeing it a lot. In fact I’ve a whole series planned on the witterings of “Steve Freedom”.
on 15 May 2007 at 8:44 am 122.working class said …

Dear Bob
The Second world war was not a vote for immigration?
Our people died saving our Country from Invasion!
Not for Immigration…..Bob!
If only they could see the Country now!(TREASON)
You and your Pals would be hanging from a rope!
on 15 May 2007 at 8:55 am 123.Unity said …

Hanging from a rope?

I thought that was only policy in Italy - One Fascist, One Lamp post.

Although now you come to mention it, the Italian’s did have something there…
on 15 May 2007 at 1:48 pm 124.working class said …

Whos Steve Freedom?
Point one
You pals might be into MARX,STALIN etc (what great people!)
Your missing the word…BRITISH
We are for the BRITISH way of life!
SO anyone who is against immigration is a nazi?
Your talking BULLSHINE NOW!WHAT BOLLOCKS!
Why do you go and on about the nazis…Its so boring!
We kick their arse!FULL STOP!
on 15 May 2007 at 6:18 pm 125.Bob said …

No Black or Asian troops then Smith Or is that another part of the second world war that you have erased. I must have imagened the Gurkha regiment and the 13 Victoria Crosses Gurkha soldiers have won. No Black troops from the West Indies ,No Indian regiments . All made up was they ?

Yes the British people fought for a way of life and responded by voting for the most left wing UK government of any time .One that nationalized the major parts of the economy at the time and instigated the largest Marxist economic program in western Europe .

The only traitors imprisoned were not the communists but those followers of the British Union of Fascists who’s policies were anti immigration .
on 15 May 2007 at 7:30 pm 126.Tiptontruth said …

Hold on a bit.

Our infamous leader of the nazi BNP party in Sandwell has took over 124 entry blogs to pose the question?

“Who’s Steve Freedom”

I know you are not on this planet most of the time trying to rewrite history to meet your so called respectable image of your party for today,but you have one or two major problems with that.

Namely your vile enteries on various websites over many years like Stormfront have been traced right back to your very own pc. together with your Working Class entries as Unity told David in blog 109

So dont come with the “Its not me gov” Simon

Unity by the way I thought the Tipton showers comments to David needs explaining cause it seems to have upset David as being a bit below the belt! even when he invited Labourites to have a go! So can you explain please for us mere mortals.

Finally David have you had time to digest those entries by our fellow blogger Steve Freedom aka Simon Smith aka Working Class.

I’m interested because you seem very quick to critise Labour Councillors and are in many media’s giving your very interesting opinions on many subjects so what about our Stevie then?

Waiting
on 15 May 2007 at 9:26 pm 127.David Bartley said …

The way I see it; ‘Tiptontruth, ‘Bob’, ‘Working Class’ and ‘Unity’, you are all entitled to your opinions.
However, it is obvious that I have more bottle in my little finger than all of you lot put together. You don’t have to guess my identity - I’m David Bartley of Tipton.
All of you have obviously got something to hide. You are a bunch of anonymous tossers. Chickens, the lot of you.
I’ll look any one of you in the eye, any day, and discuss anything you like. But it will never happen because you haven’t got the balls to reveal your identities.
I’ve had my bit of fun on these pages, but this is my last contribution. You are not worthy of my involvement. I shall continue to speak my mind, and my name will always follow my words, unlike you lot.
I am a master debater, you lot are a bunch of masturbaters.
That’s one of the numerous differences between us. Cheerio, David Bartley.
on 16 May 2007 at 7:12 am 128.working class said …

Hello Bob…
You have a thing with NAZIS and FASCISTS…
The same Bullshine everytime!Our people did not fight for
YOUR SICK DREAM!
What did tony say…
on 16 May 2007 at 7:17 am 129.Tiptontruth said …

Well, Well,Well,

The master debater ah? David Bartley of Tipton aka The Tipton Gob is no more.

I dont think so. A self proclaimed Bard who has the cheek to read at memorial services for the Tipton Royal British Legion. I think its more about the self publicity he gets to feed his ego.

David Your silence is deafening, the information Unity provided regarding the vile contributions of Working Class aka the Leader of the BNP in Sandwell Cllr Simon Smith of Great Bridge Ward or aka Steve Freedom on other sites.

It would once again seem a bridge to far for OUR GREAT DEBATER Mr David Bartley of Tipton to comment ( he comments on everything else ) on the evidence Unity provided or is it that David Bartleys bliefs and actions as previously reported at election counts cheering at the election of BNP councillors and going round to the BNP and Tories telling them they are splitting their vote and to get together and sort it out or they will never beat Labour.

No wonder he reads his poetry at the Conservative Club I wonder if thats where the election deals have previously been done with ther BNP or maybe it was in the showers at Tipton Baths, Unity this really hit a raw nerve with our David I wonder why. I couldn’t guess why? You drove the man away. Ibet when our David said to Labourites to have a go at him he didn’t think they wouldn’t?

Well my views are Liberal and I have tried over a considerable amount of time to get OUR GREAT DEBATER DAVID BARTLEY OF TIPTON “AKA THE TIPTON GOB” to comment on the vile nazi appeasers enteries of working class AKA Simon Smith but as you can see he cannot utter a single condemnation of Councillor Simon Smith.

I can only assume his silence is that he agrees with them and to put this in writing would be a further nail in his self promotional poetry career.

I’m sure the BBC would not want a BNP holocaust denier making regular contributions or indeed I have no doubt Ed Doolan would be wary to associate with our David or the Express and Star would have qualms about his regular contributions, well the BBC anyway.

So good riddence I hope you are less vocal in Tipton an give us all a rest, Or if not expect to be challenged again and again. R.I.P.

Unity I bet he will be back. God help us, he cant resist.

So if he creeps out from under his stone again can Unity tell us all about the showers comment please, or are you waiting for a world premier exclusive?
on 17 May 2007 at 8:29 am 130.working class said …

What did Tony Benn say…
We in the Labour party hope that one day… that the people of Britain will be brown?
But you know that!what a bunch of evil people!
What your pals are doing is GENOCIDE!no more-no less!
The GENOCIDE OF THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE OF THIS LAND!
We will fight you all the way!
on 17 May 2007 at 11:41 am 131.Unity said …

What did Tony Benn say…
We in the Labour party hope that one day… that the people of Britain will be brown?

Hang on, Simon.

Doesn’t Jamie Lloyd’s wife run a tanning salon in Bilston?

Looks like she’s got no problems with everyone being brown.
on 17 May 2007 at 12:16 pm 132.working class said …

LOL Unity
But Mr Benn did say that…Did he not?
Also is Mr Benn of immigrant stock?
If thats the case…He should shut up!
Mr Unity are you of immigrant stock?
What your friends are doing is GENOCIDE…
ALSO
Your friend…you know who! loves brum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
on 17 May 2007 at 1:24 pm 133.Unity said …

Not having my copies of Benn’s diaries to hand its impossible for me to verify the precise statement you’re referring to, Simon, although the use of ellipis in your quotation does indicate that part of the statement is absent - no doubt that portion which places his remarks into their proper context.

One thing that I can be sure Benn did say, and which I think relevant here, is his response to Enoch Powell’s ‘Rivers of Blood’ speech.

“The flag of racialism which has been hoisted in Wolverhampton is beginning to look like the one that fluttered 25 years ago over Dachau and Belsen.”

As for Benn’s ancestry, as I recall he is related to Josiah Wedgewood on his mother’s side.

Am I of immigrant stock? Well a number of my ancestors were Hugenots who came to Britain to escape the religious wars and persecutions on the continent. Then there’s the Irish branch - bit distant that.

And more recently I have family in Malta, courtesy of an Uncle who was stationed on the island during WWII, so technically there’s a part share in the George Cross there - they’re definitely brown, BTW. And, dating from the same period, there’s also the Polish branch of the family as well, the founder of which was ex-RAF and flew Hurricanes during the Battle of Britain.

I can also lay claim to family in Canada, Australia, Italy, Spain, Barbados - that’s from another WWII veteran, although merchant rather than regular Navy - and the US.

And had my dad taken a job he was offered in the 1960s, I would have been born in Zimbabwe.

So your point is?
on 18 May 2007 at 1:11 pm 134.working class said …

No point
Do you have a thing about NAZIS…
Because your always going on about them(give it a rest)
The point is…OUR PEOPLE NEVER HAD A VOTE ON IMMIGRATION
Did they…
on 19 May 2007 at 7:39 pm 135.Tiptontruth said …

I seem to have lost a bit of the thread here.

The references to the indiginous “white I assume” population is wide of the mark in Sandwell as no one can say that the BNP rabble that attended the local election count recently was anything near the so called white indiginous poulation.

Unless the comments from working class aka Simon Smith the Sandwell BNP leader as filtered through to this lot also and membership would seem to be something offer than the colour of ones skin.

Maybe you need to be naturally thug looking, offensive and foully agressive although when asking people for their votes they will not demonstrate this on the door step will they.

But whilst our great BNP leader in Sandwell I have no doubt hold these very deep held views about the indiginous population and that immigrents have taken all our native stock.

Can our Simon answer one burning question that has been on most peoples lips throughout Sandwell from those who have seen our infamous gang of four.

What the hell is he on about as even within the infamous gang of four one of them if not two are certainly not from the white indiginous population.

Namely our Tividale BNP Councillor Carl Butler unless he is from the oriental branch.

So thats alright then i’m happy with this not the person but the principle but how does Simon square this then I wonder in view of his previous comments.

If Simon the former teacher remembers his anthrology he should know that we all will have ancestors from all over the world including having different races and colours mixed over hundreds of centuries.

I have no doubt that this would apply to Simon working class Smith although I wouldn’t hazards a guess what species he decends from never mind what race!
on 20 May 2007 at 7:29 am 136.epsilon said …

So sad to lose the great orator that is David Bartley.

David is of course, so ‘Mr.Tipton’ that he popped up a year or two ago compereing concerts. In errr….Stourbridge….

Well, lets hope this new career of his flourishes…giving him less time to fool certain BBC WM broadcasters into thinking he is Mr.CuddlyWuddly.

A career, I am sure, that HM Customs and Revenue have been informed of from day one.
on 20 May 2007 at 9:13 am 137.working class said …

Hello Tiptonbull
The burning point is,,,would you leave some of your friends
with CHILDREN?
I think not!
I have no doubts about the race of certain Councillors
Sorry your way off line!but LOL
Whats the rubbish about colours mixed over centuries
Your thinking of DAZ!KEEPS YOUR WHITES…WHITE!